Nookipedia talk:Project Villager/2020

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Gallery

Hi there,
not sure if this is still ongoing? But seemed like the perfect place for my question. I've been adding some sprites to galleries and I noticed that they're not all the same.

Sometimes, there's just a section "6 Gallery", eg. Bill - this contains a link to a gallery page (Bill/Gallery and below is gallery with artwork from games.
Other times, there's section "6 Gallery" and subsection "6.1 Artwork", eg. Drake. Under Gallery is the link to the gallery page and under artwork is the artwork, right.
And then there are also pages, that follow the "Ideal Table of Contents" as writen here, eg. Freckles.

My question is -why do some characters have Gallery pages and some do not? I thought it was that the oldest characters have Gallery pages (because they're probably having larger galleries), but that doesn't seem to be the case. (eg. Spike, though he was absent from WW/CF. Static has appeared in all games, and does not have a gallery page and has quite the number of pictures on the page.)
Personally I think it would be better if all character had gallery pages. Sure, sometimes, especially the new ones, have just 3 pictures in gallery so having a gallery page is probably unnecessary, but it'd look better, I think. I like the first example the most, I don't see the need for the "Artwork" subsection. (If the villager has a gallery page)

I was also wondering if it wouldn't look nicer if the "Sprites and Models" subsection was arranged the way that icons are next to each other and villager pics are next to each other and models are next to each other and so on. Now it's arranged by games, so Wild World icon is followed by WW picture, followed by album sprite, followed by more icons, eg. Lucy/Gallery. I think the other sections should be arranged by date, this one would just look better if it was arranged by a type... though that would ruin the consistency through subsections which might be weird?

I didn't want to ruin any standards that I'm missing being a baby editor on here so I'm asking which it is!
Thank you. ♥
Paviinka (talk) 02:57, March 20, 2020 (EDT)

Well, you stated there that some galleries are too small to have their own pages. Don't want really unnecessary page visiting. Also, it does seem like a nice idea to organize by type of image, with all head icons in one spot and pics in another, there are some stragglers such as album art, mugshots, and full body sprites that don't neatly fit. I suppose you can fit those into an extra subsection that deals with miscellaneous kinds of sprites, kind of like what we already do with the artwork section. Beyond Lucy's gallery, which I checked, would that set up work for enough amount of villagers?

And really, don't worry about "ruining" standards here. Please don't be afraid of bringing up any questions around here. Don't even be scared of attempting any edits since anything you might "mess up" on will be just reverted, and that's at worst. Thanks for dropping a comment here, and I hope you'll feel more confident the more you edit here! ™ 03:16, March 20, 2020 (EDT)

Paviinka is a great addition to our roster of Wiki editing fans that want to improve villager pages ! That's a wonderful idea. In fact I did not even know Gallery subpages existed until SuperHamster told me so yesterday. We've had a good discussion about it and I do agree Gallery subpages do need some love. I really like the way you rearranged Wolfgang's gallery subpage, Paviinka. The only thing I would do is "Cards" should be it's own subsection of Artwork (most every villager have cards now), while Scenes should be thrown into "Miscellaneous" since there is not a whole lot of them that have scenes per say. Also, since we segregate 3D models from icons, and pictures, the section called Sprites and Models could be renamed Assets? That's my two cents !--Ocre (talk) 19:14, March 21, 2020 (EDT)

So, Ocre and I brainstormed and came up with this outline:

> Artwork
>> Renders
- official renders
- promo pictures
- sorted by release game

>> Cards
- E-cards - Amiibo - Welcome amiibo
- NA - EU - JP
- (Not sure about naming - "North American" vs "NA"?)
- Do not specify the villager
- Add link to E-Card and amiibo page

>> Miscellaneous
- wallpapers etc.

> Assets
>> Icons

>> Pictures
- Villager pics framed, followed by unframed (if available), albums (sorted by release game)

>> Models

> Screenshots
- non house screenshots

>> Housing
- interior and exterior
>> Animation
- screenshots from the movie

> Merchandise

- If one section contains multiple picture from 1 game, link only the first one
- everything is sorted by game release except Assets → Pictures (Portraits come first)

And Ocre edited O'Hare's gallery as an example. ♥

Use code {{Gallery||Renders}} in the Gallery section on the Villager's page to bring over the Renders section from gallery!

Paviinka (talk) 20:45, March 21, 2020 (EDT)

Thanks for the outline, Paviinka! That's indeed what I've been using since yesterday. --Ocre (talk) 17:25, March 23, 2020 (EDT)

Looks good! I'm thinking though, I'm not sure how well Cards fits under Artwork - it seems a bit repetitive since the artwork on the cards is identical to the renders. I think it might fit better under the Merchandise section (at the bottom?), which can have three sections, when applicable: Cards, Plushes, and Other (see Rosie/Gallery for an example of how much merchandise some villagers have). ~SuperHamster Talk 00:24, March 24, 2020 (EDT)

Thanks so much for bringing this up, Paviinka! You and Ocre have both done a great job working this out. We're definitely in need of a standard format for our villager gallery (as you have noted in your examples), and the solution that you and Ocre have come to I think works quite nicely. The proof of concept on O'Hare's page looks great/I can't think of any improvements. I would encourage you to add this outline to the project page as a guideline for future editors. I have stepped down as project leader, so you are free to continue to develop villager page standards via consensus with other editors (or apply for the position). This was a position I held for some time, but given the interest in this project by other editors and my current obligations, it's not really feasible for me to continue leading it. (talk) 00:25, March 24, 2020 (EDT)

As asked, I updated the Project's page proper with the new Gallery structure and updated the villager page structure instructions as well.--Ocre (talk) 13:13, March 24, 2020 (EDT)

Transcluding Gallery subpages content to villager pages

Hi ! We've had a good discussion with SuperHamster and Paviinka on the Discord regarding Gallery subpages and the lack of cohenrence between them, the villagers pages, and what gallery content should be shown on villager pages. A few points were raised :

• It does not seem like there are any policy laid as to what images should be shown in the gallery section of villager pages : some show Artwork only, some show Artwork + Sprites + Miscellaneous, and some show even screenshots.
• There is a problem regarding adding new villager pictures to Nookipedia. If you want to add them in the Villager/Gallery subpage, then you have double the work since you have to add them also on the villager's page proper.

So we have come up with an embryo of a policy.

1. We've come up with the suggestion that only Artwork images should be shown on the villager pages
2. SuperHamster said it was possible to have a transclude script that would fetch images in the Villager/Gallery subpage and show them on the villager's page, but only those of the section Artwork. That way we wouldn't have to work twice over - we would only work on the Villager/Gallery subpage when adding in new images.
3. Since most of the images will now be stashed away in the Villager/Gallery subpages, the link to these subpages on villager pages should be made more proheminent - SuperHamster suggested a button or a something a bit more user-friendly?

I will not discuss the problem regarding the content of Villager/Gallery subpages that Paviinka has raised yesterday. It's a distinct problem, and I shall discuss it in the discussion she started above. --Ocre (talk) 18:57, March 21, 2020 (EDT)

Galleries as separate pages should be comprehensive as they need to be. If there is artwork only in a gallery, I'm guessing it's just a simple content gap or there's not enough images for a separate page anyway. Gallery pages, provided they are substantial, should be organized by artwork/sprites+models/screenshots/misc. Screenshots should be if the villager is a main focus (being talked to, inside their house), not if they're in the background.

Again, galleries should not be created if there is not enough artwork needed for a gallery (Phil wouldn't need a gallery, for instance, at least at revision I'm seeing). A point of a separate gallery page is to prevent the size of galleries overwhelming the main page (see Player/Gallery as an extreme example). Sometimes, it's at the editors' discretions; Cube can probably use a separate gallery page, but it's also not quite big enough to need a separate page. If we need to create a page for galleries, then the empty section that links to the gallery should have a small gallery of 3-5 images, preferably artwork.

Adding art in both the gallery and the main page is not a big problem. The only thing I can see it being a problem is if the gallery page is unnecessary. ™ 19:09, March 21, 2020 (EDT)

While I understand your point Mario, I believe that the intention is to create a long-term, standardized solution to Villager gallery pages, whereby every villager gets a separate gallery page regardless of length. I think there is an underlying assumption that in the future, once every villager's page has been improved, all villagers will require a gallery page. I'm generally in support of this, because as we shift our focus to a more mobile-centered approach, decreasing the length of a page will make it easier to navigate (less scrolling). Having less images on the page will also help it load faster (although this is probably negligible?). Perhaps we can adjust display on desktop vs mobile to allow for the transclusion of more images on displays with larger screen real estate. (talk) 00:45, March 24, 2020 (EDT)

Agreed. Mario's raises excellent points, but ultimately I think having all villager galleries in central, predictable spots is worth it, to make them easy to maintain moving forward. The other nice thing about the transclusion is, let's say today we're only including artwork on villager article galleries, and tomorrow we decide we want to include sprites too...we can do a mass-replace of the Gallery template and be done with it. ~SuperHamster Talk 01:43, March 25, 2020 (EDT)

Standardization of minor things and other stuff...

Hi. I've been making some small edits in between obtaining house images and, well, I noticed that a lot of things are done differently and I probably messed stuff. When I wanted to refer to PV, there was nothing about it.

Infobox Villager

Clothes parameter. It is suggested to use the "tt" hint template. Apparently, that does not work for mobile. I've seen a few solutions used:

• Wave Print<br><small>({{DnMe+|nolink}})</small><br>Striped Shirt (Blue)<br><small>({{CF|nolink|short}} onwards)</small>

Wave Print
(Doubutsu no Mori e+)
Striped Shirt (Blue)
(City Folk onwards)

• Wave Print <small>({{DnMe+|nolink}})</small><br>Striped Shirt (Blue) <small>({{CF|nolink|short}} onwards)</small>

Wave Print (Doubutsu no Mori e+)
Striped Shirt (Blue) (City Folk onwards)

• Wave print <small>{{DnMe+|nolink}}</small><br>Striped Shirt (Blue) <small>{{CF|nolink|short}} onwards</small>

Wave print
Doubutsu no Mori e+
Striped Shirt (Blue)
City Folk onwards

Personally I am fan of using bracket and having the game on a new line - that saves space (which is beneficial for mobile view) and the brackets make it more obvious that it's a note and not just random game's name... Next, if the clothing was called something else in different games, the "Note" template should be used.
Phrases. Some Japanese/Korean/Russian phrases have romanization noted next to the phrase. I've noticed that sometimes, if romanization is available for the japanese phrase, it is put into the "Note" template. But usually only the japanese one, even if the russian/korean have romanization as well. I think all pages should either:

• Have romanization next to the phrase in brackets
• Have romanization in the "Note" template

If the "Note" template will be used - how's it going to be formatted? The easiest is "Romanization: Pū xiū". I've seen someone was doing "Romanization: Pū xiū" and I thought that it looked cute so I started doing that too. Not the brightest idea but the pages are going to be updated a few more times anyway and it's not that hard to fix.
I'm not sure that the romanization has to be in the "Note" template, that just makes too many notes. I feel like it's fine just noted with brackets... I don't have a strong opinion on that I think. I'd be fine with whatever.
The Japanese-exclusive villagers (eg. Tarou) have their latest quote in Japanese - the translation should be done using the "Note" template and if the Romanization will be writen using the Note template, it should be formatted in the same way.

Housing section

Section titles. This has been discussed on the Discord Server. Some Villagers have the same house in DnM, ACGC and DnMe+. I still haven't gotten to checking DnMe+, but there's still the assumption that DnMe+ house will be the DnM house? Anyway, I feel like it could be noted on how to name the subsections somewhere.

• DnM, ACGC, DnMe+ houses are different

In Doubutsu no Mori

In Animal Crossing

In Doubutsu no Mori e+

• DnM=DnMe+, ACGC is different

In Animal Crossing

In Doubutsu no Mori e+

Note that DnM=DnMe+

• DnM=DnMe+=ACGC

In Animal Crossing

Note that all houses are the same

• DnM=ACGC, DnMe+ is different

In Animal Crossing

In Doubutsu no Mori e+

Note that DnM=PG

That is my proposal on how to deal with the section titles.
Differences in int. Some houses in DnM differ from the ACGC ones by just one to a few furniture items. If I remember correctly, Rosie has arrow sign in the Japanese version, but doesn't in the English one. Not that big change, but making a note of any sorts would break the template (not show the furniture items), and I've read somewhere that the special villagers appearances should have a new section even if just the t-shirt is different, so that should work for houses, too.
Int images list - At my Nookipedia Google Sheet, the "DnM" tab - "PG" next to a villager's namee means that DnM int = ACGC int, "DnM" means that it's different. Included are the links to the images. "Retake" means that I find the ACGC screenshot too dark and will try to take a better one. I'm halfway there, so if someone wants to check what has been done, perhaps. Anyway, I'll start adding them to the articles whenever we settle down on the section naming, so it's named properly already.
Furniture. Should be sorted out in a way to save space. Do not include duplicate (New Horizons has a lot of rooms with tons of dupe garlands :/)
Music. I'm using the "Note" template to note the game (ACGC/ DnMe+) + sometimes I add "Does not include stereo initially," but apparently villagers in DnM couldn't change the layout of their houses and I'm unsure about the older games? So I don't know how to deal with that. I'm also unsure if the earlier music noted is correct as I know some pages described the PG houses incorrectly. I don't wanna deal with music though so :// Anyway, the point of this paragraph is - should we note the stereo thing?

Other stuff

Other appearances - HHD - List of HHD character with missing HHD template (includes Special characters as well) - is the info in the template dependant on the amiibo cards or can it just be the ordinary build request? I suppose the quickest would be to check the game, but I figured I could ask.
Names in other languages - I've come across one villager page that used the "tt" hint template in this table. I feel like there's no need for that, as the point of the table is to explain how the name came to be, so it should list everything at first glance. Anyway, if we're not using "tt", we'd have to use the "Note" template, and that'd just look bad.
Galleries. So, when making the outline with Ocre, we noted to only link the first game appearance in section. If NL villager pic is next to NH villager pic that is followed by NL album, obviously only the pic has to be linked. I've noticed that some people only link the first appearance of the game (so NL is only linked in the renders). I looked around for a linking policy or style manual and I couldn't find it. I feel like, in the galleries, every subsection should have the first game appearance linked. I could compromise and make it every section (aka, "Main" would only have "Renders" with links, but "Screenshots" would continue having links). I wouldn't want to scroll way up to find a game link, but that's probably just me. We should make this coherent though, eventually.

Comments

I'm aware that I've written this comment in quite commanding way, it's hot and my non existent English knowledge is escaping me, haha, so, please try not to take it in that way. It is a discussion and I'm not trying to dictate anything or set something in stone without consulting. This should be everything for now, haha. Paviinka (talk) 10:24, April 22, 2020 (EDT)

I just want to note here that I've changed my mind and I'd go for "Wave Print (Doubutsu no Mori e+)
Striped Shirt (Blue) (City Folk onwards)" version haha.

Also, more on galleries - islanders' sprites are linked with Animal Island; I'd link the DnMe+ sprites with DnMe+ and under it with GBA minigames, as the sprites are in gameboy and not in the "raw" DnMe+ experience haha.

Also I was thinking if we really need to have the long for of game names in the galleries; esp when there are more than one screenshots next to each other, I think after one "Animal Crossing: Something" the "Something" is enough...? Paviinka(Message me!) 12:59, May 1, 2020 (EDT)

I agree that using {{tt}} is not ideal. I think having them on separate lines is best, maybe we can adjust the line-height and text color so it's a bit clearer. A quick mock-up:

Wave Print
(Doub. no Mori e+)

Striped Shirt (Blue)
(City Folk onwards)

I would vote for the phrase romanization after the native script in parentheses:

 ネコ (Neko)

Only the most recent English saying should stay in the Infobox, IMO, and the other languages could be translated like this:

 豚に真珠
Cast pearls to pigs.

I agree with the section titles. Basically, there should be a new section for each game that has a different interior, even if the exterior is unchanged. Also it's possible for some DnM+ homes to be different from DnM & PG (there are different items between the two games, and some items have different textures), so it might also get its own section. I know I mentioned adding an 'identical' parameter, but maybe it's just more helpful to add a 'notes' parameter, and then any sort of notes can be included there?

Furniture, agree that duplicates don't need to be included. Also, if it's possible, it would be nice to list the items with the shortest names exclusively using either the even or odd furniture parameters (e.g. f1, f3, f5...) This way the furniture names take up the least amount of space and don't extend the template. This isn't really a big deal though, as I think SuperHamster and I were planning on revamping the template to display horizontally on desktop so we won't have to worry about that issue.

As for music, I don't know whether or not animals can change their home layout in older games (GameCube and prior). I feel like it's something I should know, but I don't remember. I don't think that they can, but we would need to check. For noting these, I would avoid the note template and do something like this, since they will all be on the same line:

K.K. Tango (DnMe+), Only You (WW & CF), K.K. Island (New Leaf onward)

Using the shortest abbreviation for all games, unless you need to note 'and prior' or 'onward' in which case you'd use the short version.

For missing HHD info, are you asking if the request is different depending on whether you call them via amiibo card versus a random encounter? That I honestly don't know... although I don't think it's different. *sweatdrop*

The Names in Other Languages template needs to be revamped. For now I would list the romanization below the original script: ニコバン<br>Nikoban

I agree that the gallery links would be better formatted using 'short' (e.g. {{NH|short}}). Having the 'Animal Crossing' before everything makes it difficult to see what images are from where. I also agree that there should be one link per main section (e.g. == Main Section ==)

I don't think I understand your comment about the links below islander sprites. Could you show an example of what you would do vs. what is currently being done? (talk) 14:55, May 1, 2020 (EDT)

As far as romanization of Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Russian phrases, when I was updating the infoboxes in January-February, I have deleted a lot of those. My angle is : make it simple. It's in an infobox, which is already overloaded with information. Romanization notes would often make it unnecessarily complicated in a very confined space. It's OK, we have the information in the native language, Nookipedia doesn't have to become a translation program in top of an encyclopaedia. 1- I doubt people are interested at all, 2- If it's not a standardized thing for every villager, it shouldn't be a thing at all. So for all these reasons (limited space, non-standardized practice, limited pertinence), I think we should just do-away with romanization of non-latinized languages. There is Google Translate for that. --Ocre (talk) 14:58, May 6, 2020 (EDT)

Rename NH villager icons

I'd like to rename our NH villager icons from VillagerName NH Icon to VillagerName NH Villager Icon (e.g. File:Rocket NH Villager Icon.png to File:Rocket NH Villager Icon.png). Reason is that some names, like Rocket, conflict with furniture files that follow the same naming schema. This can cause confusion when trying to find files, and can cause problems as several of our templates automatically try to pull icons. Just wanted to bring it up here in case someone prefers a different naming schema. ~SuperHamster Talk 10:42, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Done ~SuperHamster Talk 03:21, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Non-English name hatnotes

At the moment, on villagers who have a non-English name that matches that of another villager, we output hatnotes. An extreme example is Cherry, who has the following hatnotes:

This article is about the dog villager. For the special villager whose English name is the same as this villager's Spanish name, see Luna. For the villager whose French name is the same as this villager's Spanish name, see Shari.

This article is about the dog villager. For the villager whose German name is the same as this villager's French name, see Midge.'

This article is about the dog villager. For the villager whose English name is the same as this villager's German name, see Bella. For the villager whose Spanish name is the same as this villager's German name, see Belle.'

This article is about the dog villager. For the villager whose French name is the same as this villager's German name, see Cupcake.

I commend the goal here, but unfortunately these are not useful for the vast majority of our readers and are a major distraction, especially on mobile. Instead I propose the following:

• We only disambiguate with respect to English. For the case of Cherry, this means we would only need "For the special character whose Spanish name is Cherry, see Luna."
• We can use a new template I made, Template:LangNote. This template provides more concise text.

On a sidenote: If we want to disambiguate all non-English names, we can (a) make redirects from non-English names to their respective English articles, and (b) in cases where multiple languages use the same name to refer to different villagers, we'd create a distinct disambiguation page (e.g. Lola, which refers to Carrie in Spanish, Nibbles in French, and Tutu in Italian). But I'll leave this for a separate discussion. ~SuperHamster Talk 06:14, May 22, 2020 (EDT)

Town/Island tune variations

I propose we add a villager's (and special character's) variation of the town/island tune to their page, specifying things like the instrument used (which varies by species), the pitch, the speed, the rhythm. Though since I think it might be a lot of work to analyse all the variations from every game, we should start with the variations from New Horizons, then the ones from earlier games. What do you think? Garf 17:50, August 12, 2020 (EDT)

I think that's a very good idea! In addition to what you suggested, we could have audio files of the various versions of the default town tune for each character. The thing is, those tunes are procedurally generated since they can be customized, meaning those tracks can't just be ripped from the game. However, if we could rip the individual notes and find the data that tells the game which pitch/rhythm to set it to for a specific character, we might be able to create a script to piece them together. Note: I know nothing about scripting/how the audio files work in-game, so this is just speculation, but I think it should be possible, if a little challenging/time consuming. ~ AlexBot2004 (Talk) 19:00, August 12, 2020 (EDT)

Before we start, there does exist a video for Doubutsu no Mori 64 that does exactly this, so maybe we could start with the OG villager gang atleast in terms of what GarfQC suggested (instruments, pitch, etc.). Here's the link. (It's in Japanese, but I don't think that really matters) TurtleCrossing (talk) 23:08, August 12, 2020 (EDT)

Japanese Name, pt. 2

I started a discussion in Project Clean-Up about making redirects and disambiguation pages for the foreign names of villagers. Could this be a possible thing to work on here? 21:08, September 6, 2020 (EDT)

It's certainly something within the scope of Project Villager. I think the best way to go about this, would be to utilize the Cargo data associated with a villager's translation information. I'm not familiar with the methods of automating page generation hinted at by SuperHamster in his reply to you on the Project Clean-Up talk page, however. So if it's something you're interested in pursuing I would suggest collaborating with him on that aspect of the project. Of course, if you'd rather manually create the individual pages that's also an option, however the automated route would achieve the same results in hours as opposed to days or weeks. (talk) 14:27, October 18, 2020 (EDT)

Regarding duplicate furniture listings in the house info template

As best I can tell from any of the language of this project, it would appear that a decision to not list duplicate items in villagers’ house info boxes was made at some point. Following this, I made an edit on Admiral’s page, though this was quickly reverted with an explanation that the duplicates are necessary and a standard on many pages. The explanation makes sense, however, directly conflicts with what I understand from this page. I just want to clarify whether this is the most up to date decision on how this information is intended to be displayed. (Asked this already on Admiral’s talk page but I think it may have gotten buried in the changelog and missed so thought this might be a more appropriate and visible place to bring this) ~ Poppliopal (talk) 05:38, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

So we actually discussed this a bit today on Discord as well. What we came up with is that we should convey multiples of an item, except that instead of listing them as separate items, we should use a count parameter (e.g. if a house has four Samurai Suits, we'd have furn1 = Samurai Suit and f1-count = 4; we would then display "(x4)" next to the Samurai Suit). Does that sound good? ~SuperHamster Talk 06:25, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

That actually sounds like a very good solution! Would convey the same meaning but take up less space. What would be done for items that have variations, in this case? Would they be counted in the overall number, or would they be listed individually when a villager has more than one variation of the same item (as I have noticed is the case on some pages as of right now)? ~ Poppliopal (talk) 06:44, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

Hmm IMO I think we can still list those as separate items (and the image shown will match whichever variation is specified). ~SuperHamster Talk 06:47, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

That’s what I was thinking made sense, because the variation makes it different enough. And having the different visual would make it obvious that it’s not just a duplicate in the same color. ~ Poppliopal (talk) 06:51, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

Wild World/City Folk houses

How should we deal with villager houses in Wild World and City Folk? I know there was a decision not too long ago in the Discord server to keep them separate because they have different furniture positions, but as discovered by HylianAngel, this may be only because villagers occasionally change up the furniture layout in their houses after the first day they move in in these two games. An example of two identical ones can be seen with Nibbles's house (here and here). I can see both ways of dealing with it, though I do think the differences in the games' visuals (and the fact that they are separate games) is enough to warrant keeping them separate. That being said, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this. ~ AlexBot2004 (Talk) 16:12, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

Although I'm still somewhat against having them as separate entries when the houses are identical, I can understand the merit in having both. Like you mentioned, some of the visuals are different, especially the shape of some furniture pieces. And this is only applicable for different furniture which should definitely have different entries anyways, but I noticed occasional shocking differences, like Elvis's WW Thrones being replaced with simple Regal Chairs in CF. (Though a lot of the time the houses are the same.) HylianAngel (talk) 16:30, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

to me, the different graphics of the game and the game differences themselves seem like enough to warrant it, because even if it’s the same furniture in the same layout the images are quite visually different. It’s not quite like DnM/PG/DnMe+ where they mostly just made edits to the same game. My vote would be to leave them separate ~ Poppliopal (talk) 16:34, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

Oh yeah and also the Water Bird in the Nibbles house is oriented to be facing a different direction. Those sort of differences would warrant a separate box. HylianAngel (talk) 16:47, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

I agree with keeping them separate for the reasons already above. On top of that, combining them will create some challenges down the road. For example, we'll eventually have item pages for all WW and CF items. If the boxes are combined, which items do we link to? It was also briefly brought up on Discord that we may want to create separate House templates for each game for easier maintainability, but having one template for two games will complicate things. ~SuperHamster Talk 19:07, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

Well that isn't too complicated of an issue. If the box was featuring a CF house, it would display CF furniture, and WW for WW. CF would be prioritized when possible since it's higher-definition than WW. And both WW and CF would be displayed in cases where there are house differences, like Elvis's Thrones/Regal Chairs differences. I'm not stating this as support for combining them, but I'm stating this because I don't think that would pose an actual problem. HylianAngel (talk) 19:27, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

So basically there would be 2 different house templates. The header would usually be combined WW&CF but displaying the CF template. And if the houses have differences then a WW header with the WW template and a CF header with the CF template. HylianAngel (talk) 19:32, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

The catch is that we want to eventually store all housing data in Cargo tables - so if we display a CF housing template for both WW+CF, we'd need a way (probably a parameter) to specify that the data in the CF template should also be stored in the WW table. It's not impossible, just added complexity. ~SuperHamster Talk 22:33, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

Ah, gotcha. HylianAngel (talk) 23:07, October 31, 2020 (EDT)

A new thought I just had on this is that the exteriors are definitely different between the two games. I know as of right now the wiki is generally lacking in exterior images for either game, but whenever those are eventually uploaded, that part will be quite different. ~ Poppliopal (talk) 04:18, November 2, 2020 (EST)

I know that New Leaf and New Horizons have unique exteriors, and the N64/GC games have pools of shared exteriors, but do WW and CF actually have unique exteriors? I'm 90% sure that WW doesn't have unique housing exteriors, because I have saved multiple exterior pictures of the same villager's house, but they are all different. The 10% doubt is because it's one of the starting 3 villagers, so I don't know if they moved in with their real exteriors later, but I feel this is highly unlikely. If CF doesn't have unique exteriors either, then this wouldn't make a difference as the boxes could still be combined. HylianAngel (talk) 04:23, November 2, 2020 (EST)

Otherwise I would be totally be uploading the WW exteriors as well as the interiors. I do have the exteriors saved in case there's some niche need for them, but I don't think there's a point in placing a random exterior on a villager's page. HylianAngel (talk) 04:25, November 2, 2020 (EST)

Any clarification on if CF has unique exteriors would be great, because I'm not sure on that mechanic at all. HylianAngel (talk) 04:26, November 2, 2020 (EST)

Oh, I'm not actually sure about that. I was just thinking in general terms between the two games, I didn't realize this was a possibility. But if it is the case that they don't have set house exteriors then I suppose that doesn't matter. (And if it is really the case maybe the exterior photo space should be done away with on WW and CF templates?) I guess we could always have all the exterior options on a page (probably Villager houses?) and state that they aren't set to specific villagers. ~ Poppliopal (talk) 04:29, November 2, 2020 (EST)

Yeah, if it turns out there aren't any unique exteriors for WW/CF then that field should definitely be removed. But I can't say until I know the mechanics. Also on a completely different topic, I just wanted to mention that I noticed you were adding some furniture for a bunch of houses, which has been really helpful. There's just one small thing, which is a lot of the screenshots on this wiki from WW and onward are of "gifted" villagers, or villagers that have lived long enough in the town to start randomly rearranging their furniture. So if the furniture is based solely on the screenshot, it might actually be incorrect. There's a spreadsheet of CF furniture on this project page though, which is a great resource for double-checking if the house is gifted. So far the WW/CF houses have identical furniture, except for very specific cases where a few of the furniture pieces are exchanged, like Chow, Elvis, etc.'s houses. HylianAngel (talk)

Oh okay! Thank you for pointing that out! I had looked through this whole page but there's so much info that I must have missed that link. I'll make sure to check with that from now on! ~ Poppliopal (talk) 04:44, November 2, 2020 (EST)

Tbh I haven't even read the whole page very thoroughly, I kinda skimmed through it but happened to notice that. HylianAngel (talk) 04:59, November 2, 2020 (EST)

Villager infobox images

Scenario: We have a non-transparent image of Fang in a cool pose (File:Fang_NH.png), and a transparent image of Fang in a basic pose (File:Fang_NH_1.png). Which should we prioritize for the infobox? I'm a fan of the transparencies, even if in an unideal pose. Some readers use their own dark modes, and many will reuse and share the images elsewhere with nonwhite backgrounds. And while the API shouldn't necessarily drive what we do on-wiki, the transparencies are much preferred by our API users as well. ~SuperHamster Talk 16:37, December 2, 2020 (EST)

Hmm, that's a good point you bring up, but I think it's reasonable to use the non-transparent image because most of our readers will be viewing it against a white background. Regardless, the transparent image you linked (File:Fang NH 1.png) is actually an unofficial transparency, so that should be reuploaded to comply with our image policy. This means that not all villagers may have official transparencies, so no matter what we'll have to use non-transparent images for some of their pages. I think I'm in favor of using a hierarchy of sorts for images, meaning we use the posed render if it exists, then if not, we use the front render, then we use the angled render, all regardless of transparency. ~ AlexBot2004 (Talk) 09:53, December 3, 2020 (EST)

I have to be honest, I'm not a fan of this new policy on transparency (also I feel like I've missed a discussion about this specific point lol). The images with white backgrounds stick out like a sore thumb, look amateurish, and API aside it's actually really going to complicate the creation of a dark theme for the wiki (I'm still not quite sure how to approach templates for it, but the plan is to not have any white backgrounds at the very least). IMO I think there needs to be a wider discussion about this before we make any further changes to images in this regard. -- Dorsal Axe (talk) 13:14, December 3, 2020 (EST)

It's part of our new upload policy enacted last month (and in its defense, it was up for discussion for several months :P). I didn't take issue with the no-editor-transparency rule at the time as we were seeing poor transparencies, and I wasn't aware that we had so many villagers with editor-made transparencies (partly because they are of high quality so I had no reason to suspect otherwise). In this case I think the pros of editor transparencies far outweigh any cons. The transparencies are of high quality, are commonly shared by users (both directly and through the API), and like you mentioned, we do have a dark theme planned. The only reason I can think of to use the original non-transparencies is for the virtue of remaining true to the source, but I think it's fine as long as we make clear in the image descriptions that it's a user edit, and also upload the original as a separate file for the sake of reference and archival. I'd be in support of either having an exception to the rule here, or add an addition to the image use policy that transparencies are acceptable as long as they are done to a good standard and in a context where the transparency adds good value. ~SuperHamster Talk 15:20, December 3, 2020 (EST)

Just noting here that I'd be okay with good unofficial transparencies if an unmodified version is kept for archival purposes, because a lot of artwork is hard to come by. One of the big problems was that users would upload only an unofficial transparent version of an image and not link a source, making it nearly impossible to find the original image (and if they did a bad job at the transparency, it makes it even worse). I agree with what SuperHamster said about making unofficial transparencies acceptable under specific circumstances (e.g. API images). Outside of those specific situations, I think the backgrounds should stay. ~ AlexBot2004 (Talk) 16:32, December 3, 2020 (EST)

Sounds reasonable to me. I'd recommend acceptable circumstances as usage in infoboxes, the API, and templates that may require it. ~SuperHamster Talk 01:06, December 4, 2020 (EST)

I agree that transparent images are more visually pleasing, and would help in the future implementation of a dark mode for the site. My vote is to make transparent images the default for the infobox, however a non-transparent original should be kept and displayed in the subject's gallery. Images that have been altered (made transparent) should take a consistent naming convention to identify them as such. It would also be helpful to link to the unedited version of the image in the edited image's description. (talk) 19:21, December 3, 2020 (EST)

I can agree it's important to preserve the original images and to set a standard, and I can relate to the struggle of locating good source images when so many poor quality ones flood the web. I just think there's a happy middle ground between the situation we had, and "no editor transparencies ever" which is kind of draconian and counter-productive. What everyone has proposed here seems perfectly reasonable. We could create a notice template for such images to advise that they are modified, and also link to the source image which should be given prominence on the character's gallery page/section. We should decide on a specific standard for such modifications to images, and provide easily accessible examples of what is and isn't acceptable for upload and usage. -- Dorsal Axe (talk) 12:17, December 4, 2020 (EST)