Talk:Big sister

Rename

This page was created to talk about the renaming and moving of the "Uchi" article.

Hey everyone, it's me, Sundae2Cat! I really think that this article should be renamed. Uchi is just a random Japanese word that roughly translates to "Big sister'. For starters, we could at LEAST think up of a English word for this personality. Uchi villagers are go-getters, and they will try to assist the player, but are also tomboyish and carefree. I was thinking that diligent would be a perfect name, because Uchi villagers are tough, efficient and adventurous and once befriended, committed to player, and the town's well being. If you disagree or have better ideas for the name of this personality, feel free to contribute to this article. - unsigned comment from Sundae2Cat (talk • contribs)

Hi, and welcome to Nookipedia! Unfortunately, we had this discussion before and rejected a move because of a lack of evidence. I think Uchi is the best name that we've got, personally. Drago (talk) 11:20, October 7, 2018 (EDT)

Renaming Uchi to Sisterly

Closing as move to Sisterly. Discussion's gone on for quite a while, and I think we've reached consensus. All support renaming to something. The majority support renaming to sisterly, and most who proposed alternatives still mentioned sisterly as an acceptable option. I'll perform the move tomorrow, and run a mass text-replacement to replace Uchi with Sisterly. We'll do a transition period for a few weeks where we'll keep Uchi in parentheses next to Sisterly so readers can make the connection. Thanks to all who participated. ~SuperHamster Talk 04:09, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

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I also think it should be renamed to Sisterly.

1. It's not given an English word like the other personality types.
2. In fact, even the given Japanese name is incorrect, with the correct term likely being some variation of 'ane' (an older sister). The term uchi originated from someone on the Animal Crossing Wikia who is known for being a massive chuuni.
3. With the release of New Horizons, more new fans are getting into the series than ever, this is the opportune time to rename as they are being exposed to the personality names for the first time. The wikia has renamed it to Sisterly, and people have already begun to use sisterly.

ShadeTempest 18:00, March 25, 2020 (EDT)

I'm not at all opposed to renaming, but it's case of what to rename it to. We've been down this road before. Many of the personalities were given very different names to the Japanese names, which changes the meaning substantially (e.g. Absent-minded > Lazy, and don't get me started on Jock). I've seen "Sisterly" mentioned before, but I've also seen "Tomboy" thrown around as well. The latter fits the interpretation Nintendo Treehouse has gone for, going by their general dialogue. Perhaps we could contact Nintendo and just ask them what name is appropriate? At least then we'd have a firm basis for renaming. Otherwise I think the discussion needs to focus on whichever name we can all agree upon, if that can even happen. -- Dorsal Axe (talk) 19:55, March 25, 2020 (EDT)

Adding in for context, AC Wikia recently changed Uchi to Sisterly. If we also want to move away from Uchi, I think the only reasonable option is to go with Sisterly, because otherwise we end up with three standards (Uchi vs. Sisterly vs. X) and that doesn't really help the situation. ~SuperHamster Talk 04:42, March 26, 2020 (EDT)

The rationale behind this decision was that fundamentally 'uchi' is not an English word, it has no definition in English, and therefore to the vast majority of visitors to the wikis who have no knowledge of Japanese, the word 'uchi' is simply not useful or descriptive. Translating it to a close English word makes the name clearer, easier to understand, and easier to remember for new players, and honestly is a no-brainer. Why this wasn't done years ago is entirely beyond me - dragonfree97 (talk) 12:57, March 26, 2020 (EDT)

After thinking about it some, I  Support the move. I'm hesitant to change a norm that has been used for years, but the underlying reasoning makes a lot of sense. Lots of new players have joined AC with NH, and they're still getting antiquated to everything - so now's as good a time to move it as ever. I'd also support having a transition period, where any instance of "uchi" is changed to "sisterly (uchi)" so readers can make the connection - and after say a month, completely remove Uchi across the wiki. ~SuperHamster Talk 16:38, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

I agree with renaming, but I feel "sisterly" is too vague. "Sisterly" just means to treat someone like a sister would, so it really could be anything; it's very abstract and doesn't say much about the personality without already knowing how the characters act. I also think its quite a few too many syllables. All of the other personality types have one or two syllables, so "sisterly" sticks out too much in my opinion. If I were to give a recommendation, it would be "tomboy." But, if we renamed to "sisterly," it would be better than not renaming at all. SuperHamster's point about not having three alternatives is also understandable, but I wanted to put this opinion out there. --Shrunkfunkshuffle (talk) 12:15, April 2, 2020 (EDT)

I think that the fact that "sisterly" is vague is what makes it a perfect name. Older sisters can be a lot of things, like either the caring type, or the mischievous type, and both of these have been used to describe these villagers. Plus, unlike sisterly derived from aneki, tomboy has no basis, it's a subjective impression one can have, and the villagers may not come off of as "tomboyish" to one person or another, especially in the progressive age where concepts like something being too masculine or feminine are becoming dated. ShadeTempest 17:40, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

 Support given that Uchi is an unofficial name and not the correct Japanese word. 50μs (talk) 16:46, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

Still waiting for a response from Nintendo, but if they fail to provide an answer I would support a move to Sis or Big Sis. This would be a more accurate interpretation of "Aneki", which is the only official name we've got really. -- Dorsal Axe (talk) 11:03, April 3, 2020 (EDT)

And risk creating another competing standard? - dragonfree97 (talk) 17:28, April 3, 2020 (EDT)

According to Google Translate, "Uchi" means "home", which obviously sounds like it'd be a nonsense description for villagers. Home villagers? Another "my hovercraft is full of eels" situation. Also, the TV Tropes character page for Animal Crossing has changed all instances of "Uchi" to "Sisterly", though that might be the doing of a Fandom user, considering the Fandom wiki's adoption of "Sisterly". AgentParadox (talk) 17:37, April 3, 2020 (EDT)

'Uchi' is the pronoun the villagers use to refer to themselves in the Japanese version of New Leaf (and presumably New Horizons). The use of the name 'uchi' for the personality type predates the Western release of New Leaf - dragonfree97 (talk) 17:41, April 3, 2020 (EDT)

I want to mention that uchi referring to their pronoun is probably a coincidence and wasn't the intention when that chuuni first brought the term over to the western fanbase. Somewhere along the way due to the coincidence, misinformation must've spread that the Japanese fanbase uses the pronouns as the personality names when they didn't (example), and still don't (example), though it is acknowledged that each personality type has their own pronoun. ShadeTempest 17:40, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Here is an example of a Japanese AC website that partners pronouns with personality, in this instance アネキ. I think Sisterly is a fine translation, but also I don't think there's any issue with using Uchi. It's not the first time in video games that English-speakers use a Japanese term for a game mechanic that doesn't have a simple English translation. I disagree with the sentiment that Uchi is not a correct Japanese term, I think JP speakers would immediately recognize ウチ系 "Uchi Group" as the group containing villagers like Cherry. --Fddcsjxk (talk) 00:54, April 7, 2020 (EDT)

The link I provided also noted which personalities had which pronouns. However, what I mean is that it is not necessarily the primary method used to name animal personalities. Just as we could have identified Static by calling him the "krzzt" squirrel because of his very recognizable catchphrase, it isn't necessarily the name most people would use. What I am saying that because Uchi is recognizable as the unique pronoun and could be used to identify the personality, that led to the misinformation that uchi was used as a personality name in the JP fanbase. ShadeTempest 01:07, April 8, 2020 (EDT)

There is little point to choosing Sis or Big Sis over Sisterly. Sisterly would be a better translation than simply sis or sister. The villager is not your sister. While it is more common in eastern culture to use familial terms to address strangers, such as calling someone uncle, the same is less appropriate in the English language. I also want to mention that in Japanese, aneki can be used to refer to someone that is not the speaker's sister. For the practical points, it would create another standard, and also be terrible for searching because the terms are more generic and short than sisterly. ShadeTempest 17:40, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Aneki is slang-ish term (fun fact it's often used in gangs), and actually there's a tweet from New Leaf days where Isabelle mentions how everyone starts calling Deirdre "Sis"/"Aneki" because she looks out for everyone. It's not an unheard of concept in English (kinda like using "bro" in a casual context when it also means literally "brother"). It's the only personality to basically be titled rather than a word describing its nature, which IMO is nuance worth taking into account. -- Dorsal Axe (talk) 04:03, April 7, 2020 (EDT)

You are thinking of Aniki, not Aneki. Aneki does not contain the same gang connotation that Aniki does ([1]). The gang-like term for females would be Anego. Compare various kotobank and wiktionary entries which don't mention the gang-like connotation for Aneki, but does for the others: [2] [3] [4] wiktionary:姉貴 wiktionary:兄貴. Again, the nuance of familial titles applying to strangers in a casual manner would be lost in translation to in the English language, and sisterly still gets the "looking out for everyone" point across as much as sis. ShadeTempest 01:07, April 8, 2020 (EDT)

 Support for "sisterly"; I'm starting to see it used more often on other Animal Crossing forums and wikis. I've never liked "uchi" since it's just their personal pronoun, and "sisterly" works since it matches their personality type (rough-and-tumble, but caring and protective of the player). I wouldn't mind "tomboy" either, but consistency is better for this case, I think. StrawberryChan (talk) 17:52, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Renaming "Sisterly" to "Big Sister"

I know this is much easier said than done, but I’m suggesting opening up the possibility of using “Big Sister” for this personality for the sake of reducing confusion surrounding the issue within the fandom. I understand this name has already been extensively labored/thought over, but there are a couple reasons why I think that “Big Sister” should be considered the official (or at least most official) name over “Uchi” and “Sisterly” and why the former two names have only persisted out of convenience. Apologies for the long-winded post, but I wanted to make sure I explained this issue fully.

• First, “big sister” is listed in the official guidebook (Animal Crossing: New Horizons Official Companion Guide) as the personality’s name as seen here, here. The first six personality names that Nookipedia (and most of the fandom) uses (“lazy,” “jock,” “cranky,” “normal,” “peppy,” and “snooty”) originally came from Animal Crossing Wild World: The Official Player’s Guide as seen here, and they are used again in the New Horizons guidebook, too. It would be consistent to use the New Horizons guide’s term for this personality as well. It’s true that it’s debatable if these guides are 100% official (They’re licensed by Nintendo but not truly written by them, though they surely get some info from Nintendo.), and the NH guide does make the error of listing “Sweet” as the “Normal” personality names in some sections, but since the official guides’ names are used for the first six personalities, aren’t the guides therefore considered “official enough” to be worth using? At any rate, “Big Sister” is the name for the personality given by the most official source we have.
  

• Even without the guides being considered, “big sister” is in some ways a better translation of “aneki,” the term used in New Horizons's game data (previously abbreviated as "an" in New Leaf) (discussed here). However, for consistency’s sake, it still makes more sense to use the guides’ terms than these data abbreviations. For example, “lazy” is not a very good translation of the data’s term “bonyari,” which means something closer to forgetful or absentminded. “Jock” and “snooty” are also not very accurate representations of the game code’s “hakihaki” and “takabi,” either. So the guides’ names have been historically preferred over names that translate the terms in the data as far as what to use, but “big sister” is the better choice in either scenario, including the “older” or “higher-ranking” connotation of “aneki,” which “sisterly” does not.
  

• Finally, there is the issue of confusion. The term “uchi” was popularized largely due to New Leaf coming out nine months earlier in Japan, increasing perception that this rumored new personality was a culturally Japanese phenomenon that couldn’t be accurately described with an English term. By the time English speakers got to meet these villagers for themselves, “uchi” was used so commonly that for many, it seems that it wasn't worth coming up with an English term in the absence of an English guidebook offering one. When New Horizons came out, the possible usefulness of an English term was more heavily felt, and “sisterly” was devised, just before the guidebook released and offered “Big Sister.” I understand that changing the name again could be a huge headache and confusing for some. However, it could be argued that “uchi” was used long after a more consistent English term could’ve been implemented also to avoid confusing people with a switch at the time—but this ended up contributing to more confusion long-term because many still use “uchi” instead of “sisterly” out of habit. Now, “sisterly” stands to cause more confusion because it conflicts with the guide’s term, even though the other personality names came from the guides, and there could be another long period of discrepancy over which English name, “sisterly” or “big sister,” is the “better” or “more official” term. I have even see some argue that “uchi” is the “right” term since it has been used for so long, while I don’t think “sisterly” has fully caught on yet, so I don’t think it’s too late to change. For these reasons, I think using the official guides’ terms like the fandom did for Wild World now that we have them (Thankfully "smug" already matches.) is the best way to eliminate confusion surrounding fan-created terms and what the “right” terminology is—simply using what the guidebook says. Arguably, “normal” is not a very descriptive term for a personality, but it’s still the accepted one because it’s what the Wild World guide offered, and I think the guides can similarly clear the issue here.
  

• This is more subjective, but I feel that “big sister” does a better job of capturing the gruff, familiar qualities of the personality (It sounds more like a nickname.), while “sisterly” is in some ways a bit vaguer in meaning, meaning literally “like a sister” and only connoting platonic closeness and possibly a caring/nurturing quality. While it’s true they are caring, in conversation, villagers with this personality are more rough around the edges, socially awkward, and a little alternative; they are less caring/nurturing than “normal” villagers.
  

In summary, the fandom adopted “uchi” in the absence of an English term and “sisterly” in the absence of an official guide’s term, and these terms have persisted to avoid causing confusion and having to make big changes. I'd argue that both "uchi" and "sisterly" have been helpful to the fandom. However, these invented terms cause more confusion over time the longer they’re used when an official term now exists (or at least a term much more official than the others and consistent with the first six namings). I understand changing it now would be a big deal and quite a lot of work, but those are the reasons why I think “big sister” makes much more sense to use than “uchi” or now “sisterly.” --Piranhapete (talk) 00:04, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Hmm. I brought this up in the Discord a while back and didn't really receive any feedback, but to be honest, I think I'd prefer sticking with "sisterly" even with "big sister" as a semi-official term. As you mentioned, the guide isn't necessarily a canon primary source to begin with (for instance, the Mario Kart Prima guidebooks called Peach and Daisy cousins when Nintendo has said nothing indicating that), and if it isn't consistent in using "normal" over "sweet", then that doesn't necessarily mean that "big sister" is considered a consistent term either. It's worth noting that most of the personality descriptors are adjectives, and "sisterly" gels better with that convention compared to the alternatives. I also don't think "big sister" is necessarily a better term descriptor-wise, but you mentioned that's subjective either way; "sisterly" implies that they're like a sister, which is a better translation of the idea behind it. Familial terms in Japan don't necessarily have to correspond to actually being family ("oji-san", or uncle, can be used for any old man you respect and not just your uncle). The implication given by "big sister" is familial, as opposed to "sisterly" just being platonic. And for me personally, either descriptor gives the vibe of a familiar and slightly playful and gruff personality in addition to the caring and nurturing quality. Lastly, even with "uchi" still around, "sisterly" still seems to be the more widely-adopted term irregardless of the official guide, because it's shorter and more apt in comparison (that's also why "gentlemanly" didn't catch on for "smug", even though it's more accurate to their personality). I guess this is a kind of long-winded response, but basically, I'm more in favor of "sisterly". StrawberryChan (talk) 12:29, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

I see what you’re saying, and I totally understand the perspective that “sisterly” is subjectively a better term than “big sister.” But in the end, it shouldn’t matter either way. The quality of many of the names could be debated (as discussed, “lazy” and “jock” aren’t good translations, “snooty” is also the name of a villager, “normal” is odd terminologically), but the fact remains that they’re accepted and used having come from an official source. That the New Horizons Official Companion Guide lists “sweet” instead of “normal” in the portrait section shouldn’t invalidate its info altogether. Isn’t it possible that the English-oriented localization teams at Nintendo internally have names for these personalities when translating and sorting the dialogue, or that “sweet” was seen as more useful than “normal” in the time since 2005? Yet if all listings for “normal” read “sweet” in the New Horizons guide, something tells me that could still be seen as reason to disqualify the guide as canon in a similar conversation when approaching the guide from a skeptical standpoint. It’s not in itself a good reason to reject the New Horizons guide’s term when the Wild World guide’s terms were accepted. The New Horizons guide’s contents, while imperfect, include information (game mechanics, stats, and more) well beyond what a player has access to and that, it’s safe to say, is therefore information from Nintendo. Also, the Animal Crossing: Wild World Official Player’s Guide had errors, too, listing some villagers’ personalities incorrectly (such as Punchy as “normal”), but the meaning was still clear and standardized. For what it’s worth, the lesser legitimacy of Prima guides is also fairly well known, hence why they are frequently titled “Prima Official Game Guides” as Mario Kart Wii’s is. Right now, we’re using six terms that were taken from The Animal Crossing: Wild World Official Player’s Guide, one term that was made up by fans, and one term that fits with both categories (smug). Given the arbitrary nature of something like naming, and after seven years of using an unofficial name for the personality, I think it is possible or worth considering that the inclination to keep “sisterly” could be rooted in the fact that it's already being used and subjective preferences surrounding it, rather than consistency in regards to the method in which all of these previous personalities have been named as recognized by the fandom—referencing the most official source possible. Apologies again for the long-winded response, but thank you for reading. --Piranhapete (talk) 03:45, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

To bump this a bit and iterate on my original point, it is true after thinking about it that keeping "sisterly" is largely down to subjective preferences as opposed to official terminology. If we're sticking purely with official terms, "big sister" is the right way to go; it's just that "sisterly" is a somewhat more widespread term. With this in mind, I've changed my stance and tentatively support moving to big sister (though I don't mind keeping sisterly if it falls back to that). StrawberryChan (talk) 17:26, May 26, 2020 (EDT)

I appreciate your continued discussion on this StrawberryChan, however the change to sisterly is something we're going to stick with for the time being. Making another major change after just a few months is not particularly helpful and potentially confusing. Additionally, I expect we will again have difficulty coming to consensus or will just reach the same consensus as we did previously when deciding on sisterly. If you're still interested in a change I would encourage you to bring it up at a later date, perhaps in October as we'll have had six months since the change to sisterly to gauge the community's response. (talk) 16:31, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

Wouldn't it actually be better to change it sooner than later, if it were to be changed? If a name is ultimately temporary, it would do more harm by sticking around then being replaced. If we aren't completely sure if sisterly is the way to go, replacing it before allowing it to gain traction would be best. The longer a temporary name sticks around, the more people will start using and associating with it, and the more people would be confused when it does ultimately get replaced. Consequently, it would actually be better to replace temporary names as soon as possible to reduce confusion, not later. In this vein, I think the discussion should really be about sisterly vs big sis itself, rather than just the temporary circumstances of the situation. ShadeTempest 20:34, July 28, 2020 (EDT)

"Sisterly" to "big sister", round 2

Closing discussion in favor of move to big sister. Consensus was reached that "big sister," regardless of how official the FuturePress guide is considered to be, is a more official name than the completely fan-made "sisterly". The page move and text replacements that affect Cargo and the API will not occur until one week from now (January 13, 2021) to give our API developers due notice about the change. ~ AlexBot2004 (Talk) 12:03, January 6, 2021 (EST)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

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I'm reviving the above discussion to propose a name change from "sisterly" to "big sister" for one simple reason: "big sister" is official. As far as I know, "sisterly" is 100% fan-made. I know the New Horizons FuturePress guide is not written by Nintendo, but it is authorized and licensed by them, and regardless of whether Nintendo or FuturePress came up with the term, it's official, and it's the most official name we have. For me, it simply does not make sense to use an unofficial name when an official one exists. As for changing the name again when it has already been changed this year, I think most people who know what "sisterly" means would understand "big sister" as well, and as ShadeTempest noted above, it is only going to be harder to switch names the longer we keep this one. ~ AlexBot2004 (Talk) 03:27, December 26, 2020 (EST)

First of all, I have to admire your bravery for reopening this discussion ha :p

Personally I'd be in favour of it. In the game's code, there are some files and references in New Horizon's data for "Big Sis" (and "Snobby" for Smug, interestingly). I managed to speak to someone on the localisation team on Twitter awhile back, and he said that they just use the Japanese abbreviations as they came up with any localised names for them (see this discussion and this tweet). Therefore the English names found in the game's data are about as official as it gets, it seems. One quirk with the FuturePress guidebook is that it uses two different names in different parts of the book, so I'm not too sure about using that as our basis for a change over what can be found in internal data. I tried reaching out to them about it but they never responded.

I know this has been a weirdly contentious issue though, so I'd really like to hear what others think about it. -- Dorsal Axe (talk) 05:33, December 26, 2020 (EST)

 Neutral - I don't have a strong opinion either way. The benefit of sticking with sisterly though is that it's an adjective, whereas 'big sister' is a noun phrase (adjective + noun), which makes it awkward to describe a villager as a 'big sister villager'. Not that 'sisterly' was much better, as it's not a very common or descriptive adjective. If we change it, my vote would be for 'big sis' just because I think it sounds better. (talk) 15:18, December 26, 2020 (EST)

 Support I'm going to go ahead and support this round. I still wouldn't refer to Big Sister as official though - localization-wise, I wouldn't consider anything that does not appear in the game itself to be official, and that includes game guides, Nintendo approved or not. That being said, I'll support because it's the closest we've got; it's similar enough to sisterly that it shouldn't confuse readers once changed; and it's what the ACNH Spreadsheet and many other resources use, so consistency there is a plus. ~SuperHamster Talk 15:34, December 26, 2020 (EST)

 Support I'd support this change as well. The original six personality names came from the Official Wild World Player's Guide, and Smug is included in the New Horizons Official Companion Guide, so the fan-made "Sisterly" is a big outlier. It also does divide the fandom a bit since some other resources use "Big Sister," so adding another fan-made term to the mix after "Uchi" seems to just add confusion. The NH guide's use of "Normal" in the picture section is an error by the way that is fixed in my edition I got in June where both sections use "Sweet"—likely because it's more descriptive than "Normal," so I can understand the change. (Nonetheless, I think changing "Normal" to "Sweet" is unnecessary since it still originates in an official source and the page notes the alternate name.) But the noun "big sister" isn't a problem for me, since "jock" is a noun as well. Using the game code's "big sis" might seem a little odd considering we're going with "Smug" rather than "Snobby," while the latter sounds too similar to "Snooty" for my taste. All in all, I think using an official concurrent game guide as a source for personality names worked well in the past, and I think it would help a lot with a personality that's been using fan-made names for a long time. --Piranhapete (talk) 15:50, December 26, 2020 (EST)

 Support Eh, I have no issues with the renaming especially if it's outlined by a sanctioned game guide. It's no problem to change in the future in case we do get a file descriptor. That being said, I don't really want to adhere to just in-game naming conventions. There might be a file name for things that just aren't optimal or descriptive, say a hypothetical file name that says "nag_mom" or something like that, still wouldn't be ideal over a game guide having a better name. ™ 16:10, December 26, 2020 (EST)

 Comment Just noting here: if the outcome of this discussion is to rename, please hold off on implementing the change for a week or so, so that we can give our API developers due notice. ~SuperHamster Talk 22:33, December 26, 2020 (EST)

 Support Evidence looks good. I would think some acknowledgment to the controversy might be useful in the prose if it doesn’t already exist. BB$5, December 27, 2020 (CST)

 Comment Regarding game data, most files relating to personalities simply use abbreviated prefixes (e.g. AN for Aneki). There's a couple of references within certain files that specifically mention "big sis" and "snobby". IMO this is notable, because someone on the dev team evidently went out of their way to name those in English when there wasn't any reason to do so.

Personally I also prefer "sis" to "sister" as it accurately captures the casual/informal nuance of the Japanese word (which makes sense since the player is obviously not related to these villagers), but I will happily take "big sister" over the current name. -- Dorsal Axe (talk) 07:15, January 1, 2021 (EST)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.